From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

No doubt many are saddened by the senseless loss of James Kim, the
family man that perished in the mountains of Western Oregon early this
week. I think what makes it all the more tragic is that here was a
person who was on the cutting edge of all the latest and greatest high
tech computer and communications technology. Blackberries, photo
cellphones, wifi PDA's and laptops, etc. I'm stunned a person in such
a high tech vector could become so completely isolated in such a short
distance from the mainstream.

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones
require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that
situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

nb
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

"notbob" <notbob@nothome.com> wrote in message news:RqmdneZhJOJaFeXYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com...

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery.

I'm not sure what "shortcomings" you're referring to; no cell phone or WiFi vendor suggests that you're somehow going to be able to get service out in the middle of nowhere, miles from any populated town.

As I understand it, even satellite cellphones
require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna.

No, plenty are 100% standalone. You're probably thinking of models that effectively act like traditional cordless phones back to a basestation so that the handset itself can be small and light and have good battery life.

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that
situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

(Assuming an HF band transceiver...) Not long at all.

If he had made various short hikes from the car to the surrounding hill tops perhaps he could have managed to hit a cell phone tower as well and successfully made a call.

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

Although we'll probably never know exactly what he was thinking, I've been on the road in question and to most people it justs scream "do not enter!" in winter... at least not without much better equipment and supplies, including a different vehicle.

I'd be curious to learn if he used a piece of mapping/routing software to choose his course; I've seen some that will choose the road he did because it is shorter, in mileage, than the main highway out to the coast -- not considering that the road is narrow, gravel, and otherwise rather treacherous in winter. (Even in summer it's significantly slower than the main highway.)

---Joel




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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

In article <RqmdneZhJOJaFeXYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

[snip]

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones
require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that
situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

Well, the _right_ high tech gimcrackery (a "personnel locator beacon",
e.g. <http://www.landfallnavigation.com/spwff1.html>) would almost
certainly have been effective. And I'm sorry for his family's loss, and
can appreciate that Mr. Kim must have felt that taking action was
necessary to save his wife and children, but had he _stayed_put_ he'd be
alive today.
--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

On 2006-12-07, Joel Kolstad <JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'd be curious to learn if he used a piece of mapping/routing software to choose his course;

I'm sure I've heard he had a mapquest or similar generated map.

considering that the road is narrow, gravel......

That would have been a flashing red light for me. In fact, I think I
took that hwy (42?) from 5 to the coast back in '75. Is that the
highway that's the usual detour to the Coast when 5 at Grant's Pass is
closed? If so, we did take it in snowy weather at night and were even
less prepared than he was (I was real young and real stupid). But, I
was smart enough to stay on the road that actually had traffic,
including trucks, on it despite it becoming pretty lonesome on some
stretches. We also put on chains (the state patrol required it).

nb
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

I agree...here in the Northern U.S. where we (usually) get plenty of
snow and ice, we were taught to stay with the vehicle (and it's always a
good idea to have an emergency supply of food and water in the car,
especially in the winter months). In the case of an air search and
rescue, it's far easier to spot a car on the ground (which is usually
very near to a road) rather than spot a person in the woods...

Scott



BakersT wrote:

Well, the _right_ high tech gimcrackery (a "personnel locator beacon",
e.g. <http://www.landfallnavigation.com/spwff1.html>) would almost
certainly have been effective. And I'm sorry for his family's loss, and
can appreciate that Mr. Kim must have felt that taking action was
necessary to save his wife and children, but had he _stayed_put_ he'd be alive today.

--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

That is really rugged country... And even with a determined multi day
search by air and snowmobile they only found her by accident... Likely
if she hadn't had the umbrella they would have sailed right on past
without seeing her... It is sheer happenstance that any survived..
Given this coddled, technological world we live in, we have lost our
fear of nature... We walk around in freezing weather wearing only a
light jacket, get into a self heating car and drive away from the
suburban streets into rugged country with the Sirius music playing and
the kids banging on the gameboy...But when our technological tools
fail, we are totally unequipped to survive in a situation of being
stranded in a hostile environment...

Could I have made the same mistake? Maybe... But, I am the product of
Northern Michigan, I live in a rural area, I drive 5000# of 4X4 truck,
I usually wear a -20F parka, even to run to the store 2.5 miles away...
Maybe my inherent caution would have made me question that road and
turn around... Maybe not... Glad it was not me...

denny

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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

Official Oregon State maps indicated in red ink the roads
that are closed in winter, off the shelf Rand McNally map did not.

with all the trees out there, too bad he did not carry a leatherman
tool.

burning the tires was smart.

wonder if he knew how to build igloo or other type of shelter.

I'd be curious to learn if he used a piece of mapping/routing software to choose his course; I've seen some that will choose the road he did because it is shorter, in mileage, than the main highway out to the coast -- not considering that the road is narrow, gravel, and otherwise rather treacherous in winter. (Even in summer it's significantly slower than the main highway.)

---Joel

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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

wonder if he used the cell phone(s) for a few min
at the top of every hour as a beacon to help recsue
try to loacte him by special gear ?



BakersT wrote:

In article <RqmdneZhJOJaFeXYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

[snip]

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

Well, the _right_ high tech gimcrackery (a "personnel locator beacon",
e.g. <http://www.landfallnavigation.com/spwff1.html>) would almost
certainly have been effective. And I'm sorry for his family's loss, and
can appreciate that Mr. Kim must have felt that taking action was
necessary to save his wife and children, but had he _stayed_put_ he'd be alive today.

--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

we never travel in that type of area but
when we do travel by car, got plenty of food,
several boxes cereal for me not the kids !,
cooler with drinks and h2o and several
road flares (makes fires fast) and my 2m/440 mobile kenwood
and ht.

also have old cb from 1975 and it works.


Scott wrote:

I agree...here in the Northern U.S. where we (usually) get plenty of
snow and ice, we were taught to stay with the vehicle (and it's always a
good idea to have an emergency supply of food and water in the car, especially in the winter months). In the case of an air search and
rescue, it's far easier to spot a car on the ground (which is usually
very near to a road) rather than spot a person in the woods...

--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

Well put.

Living in northeast Montana teaches one to NEVER go out, anywhere, unless
you are prepared to spend time in a hostile environment. There are those who do the same thing every year up here, fortunately it usually has a happier ending. Nature is very unforgiving and could care less who you are, where
you are from, what you do, etc., etc. Lose sight of that and forget to
respect nature and some hard life lessons will bestow themselves upon you, some of them can, unfortunately, be self critiquing.



--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:26:28 -0500, Lois <Lois_Lane@planet.net> wrote in <45796804.E069D9F1@planet.net>:

Scott wrote:

I agree...here in the Northern U.S. where we (usually) get plenty of
snow and ice, we were taught to stay with the vehicle (and it's always a
good idea to have an emergency supply of food and water in the car,
especially in the winter months). In the case of an air search and
rescue, it's far easier to spot a car on the ground (which is usually
very near to a road) rather than spot a person in the woods...

we never travel in that type of area but when we do travel by car,
got plenty of food, several boxes cereal for me not the kids !,
cooler with drinks and h2o and several road flares (makes fires
fast) and my 2m/440 mobile kenwood and ht.

also have old cb from 1975 and it works.

Yes, indeed. Any road trip into the western half of the US (New Mexico
and points west) this time of year will see me do these:

o Move the HF rig into the van, as well as the FM dual-bander;
o Install the HF antenna mount on the van;
o Carry a straight key and antennas for 40, 20, and 10 meters;
o Carry both 2m HTs, spare batteries, and battery chargers for them;
o Load up with food, water, cloth blankets, flares, kitty litter,
reflective Mylar blankets[1], 2 shovels, and flashlights; and
o Give _very_ serious thought to what _else_ I should carry.

We've got to drive from OKC and back over this weekend, and that's how
I'll load up the van today, even though the forecast is for good wx.
I've been called an over-cautious fuddy-duddy because I think like
that, and I'm still alive because I think like that.

Even on well-traveled roads, you can get into Too Much Trouble in bad
weather; back roads in untraveled country are, as we've just seen, far
more dangerous.

Garrison Keillor said it very well indeed:

"Life is complicated, but winter narrows it down to a
few simple problems: heat, food, shelter, plumbing.
And it focuses you in wonderful ways. You don't have
to search for your personal identity in winter; winter
gives it to you. You are prey in winter; nature is
making a serious attempt to kill you."

[1] Life-savers when it's _cold_.
--
Mike Andrews, W5EGO
mikea@mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

Roger that! I have a Yaesu FT-857 in my truck so I have HF through 440
and antennas for all bands. I'd be screaming my lungs out on 40M or 20M
or whatever band I could raise somebody on!

Scott
N0EDV

Lois wrote:

we never travel in that type of area but
when we do travel by car, got plenty of food,
several boxes cereal for me not the kids !,
cooler with drinks and h2o and several
road flares (makes fires fast) and my 2m/440 mobile kenwood
and ht.

also have old cb from 1975 and it works.

Scott wrote:

I agree...here in the Northern U.S. where we (usually) get plenty of
snow and ice, we were taught to stay with the vehicle (and it's always a >>good idea to have an emergency supply of food and water in the car, >>especially in the winter months). In the case of an air search and
rescue, it's far easier to spot a car on the ground (which is usually
very near to a road) rather than spot a person in the woods...

--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

keep in mind, he, like most of us, was just a middle class guy who had essentially no experience in rugged, snowy terrain. He lived in SF, in the city. His family was going up to visit relatives. How often do normal
middle class folks carry a big-ass survival kit that would help them survive for weeks in the snowy wilderness, even when they're driving through the
snowy wilderness between two major metropolitan areas?

It just lets us know what everybody who lives in Alaska, or North Dakota, or Montana, already knows -- far away is closer than you think.


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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote in news:RqmdneZhJOJaFeXYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com:

No doubt many are saddened by the senseless loss of James Kim, the
family man that perished in the mountains of Western Oregon early this
week. I think what makes it all the more tragic is that here was a
person who was on the cutting edge of all the latest and greatest high
tech computer and communications technology. Blackberries, photo
cellphones, wifi PDA's and laptops, etc. I'm stunned a person in such
a high tech vector could become so completely isolated in such a short distance from the mainstream.

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones
require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that
situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Actually, in those mountains, a 2 meter hand-held would probably have
given him someone to talk to.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

Scott <acepilot@bloomer.net> wrote in news:MKOdnQmHSMGyxuTYnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@bright.net:

I agree...here in the Northern U.S. where we (usually) get plenty of
snow and ice, we were taught to stay with the vehicle (and it's always
a good idea to have an emergency supply of food and water in the car, especially in the winter months). In the case of an air search and
rescue, it's far easier to spot a car on the ground (which is usually
very near to a road) rather than spot a person in the woods...

Yep...if you're going to do anything, get out and make sure the car is
not covered by snow. And if you have enough blankets/sleeping bags, then
turn off the car's electricity unless you hear a chopper in the dark.
Then flash the lights.

But people do the craziest things. I've heard of people abandoning a
boat just because it lost power, only to drown. The Coast Guard
recovered the boat intact.

And one time in Nova Scotia, we went searching for a couple that had gone missing after hiking into the woods opposite the airport. We found them
OK, but they were lost, they said, despite the fact that they were under
the approach to the main runway and at least 4 large jets an hour flew
over them!
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:33:59 -0600, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

No doubt many are saddened by the senseless loss of James Kim, the
family man that perished in the mountains of Western Oregon early this
week. I think what makes it all the more tragic is that here was a
person who was on the cutting edge of all the latest and greatest high
tech computer and communications technology. Blackberries, photo
cellphones, wifi PDA's and laptops, etc. I'm stunned a person in such
a high tech vector could become so completely isolated in such a short >distance from the mainstream.

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones
require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that
situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

nb

Great idea setting the tires on fire,but they should of started a huge forest fire in the area. going to prison for starting a forest fire is way better than dead!


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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

maxfoo wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:33:59 -0600, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

No doubt many are saddened by the senseless loss of James Kim, the
family man that perished in the mountains of Western Oregon early this >>week. I think what makes it all the more tragic is that here was a
person who was on the cutting edge of all the latest and greatest high
tech computer and communications technology. Blackberries, photo >>cellphones, wifi PDA's and laptops, etc. I'm stunned a person in such
a high tech vector could become so completely isolated in such a short >>distance from the mainstream.

This worries me because it highlights the shortcomings of all this new
high tech gimcrackery. As I understand it, even satellite cellphones >>require a service provider with a nearby uplink antenna. So, this
brings up my question, as a non ham:

How long do you think it would have taken James, or anyone in that >>situation, to make contact with outside help and get him and his
family out of there if he'd had something like a basic QRP tranceiver
and antenna and knew how to use it?

Any thoughts you may have on this issue would be appreciated.

nb

Great idea setting the tires on fire,but they should of started a huge forest fire in the area. going to prison for starting a forest fire is way better than
dead!

Starting a forest fire in the middle of the freak'in winter?
Highly unlikely.
--- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:25:58 -0500, BakersT <nomailpls@domain.invalid> wrote:

In article <RqmdneZhJOJaFeXYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:

Well, the _right_ high tech gimcrackery (a "personnel locator beacon",
e.g. <http://www.landfallnavigation.com/spwff1.html>) would almost
certainly have been effective. And I'm sorry for his family's loss, and
can appreciate that Mr. Kim must have felt that taking action was
necessary to save his wife and children, but had he _stayed_put_ he'd be alive today.

Well.. the last person to be stuck on that same road in winter time
starved to death in his camper, while he waited for rescue.

At some point, before you become incapacitated by starvation, you
have to assume that rescue isn't on it's way.

Steve
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From Newsgroup: alt.ham-radio.morse

The thing that probably saved Mrs. Kim and the kids was the fact that the family was 1) well known, 2) wealthy enough to launch a search effort on
their own to increase the search area covered and 3) someone was expecting them when they were overdue and those folks acted to start the search.

The last guy to get stuck on that road in winter starved to death in his
camper after something like 32 days..

It seems a tossup was to whether walking out is a good idea or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Camp_Road

Steve
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